A new Stones record, remembering Sam and Bob Dylan’s guitarist carousel

There are few things more reliable in popular culture than a World Cup penalty shootout inspiring arguments about fairness, a Rolling Stones album being handled carefully, or Bob Dylan inspiring precisely no usable information from anyone who has worked with him.

Episode 32 of On The Record with Brian Wise and Michael Mackenzie covers all three, plus a handy mid-year listening list, a salute to two much-loved cultural figures, and Daniel Lanois production lore.

Brian Wise opens the program deep in World Cup fatigue, having watched enough football to understand both its beauty and its cruelty.

The game’s creative flow, physical grace and global reach earn their due, however the discussion soon turns to the cold logic of the penalty shootout: a sport where up to 100 minutes of control can be undone by one player, one moment and one goalkeeper’s educated guess.

Michael Mackenzie is not convinced it is a just ending.

His proposed alternative – extra time until a golden goal – may not find favour with broadcasters, medical professionals or the players themselves, but it at least has a kind of medieval clarity.

The other football issue is cost. With tickets reportedly commanding extraordinary prices, the hosts wonder who gets to attend the supposedly global people’s game when a seat at the stadium requires a small financial miracle.

FIFA, as ever, is not portrayed as an organisation requiring a charity single.

Music soon restores the mood. Wise’s mid-year list begins with Emma Donovan’s Take Me to the River, an album of soul material and an Archie Roach song that he rates among the year’s finest Australian releases. Donovan’s live performance at Port Fairy Folk Festival and her sold-out Hamer Hall show reinforce the point: a major voice, a strong band and a record that deserved greater chart recognition.

Other local highlights include Ruby Jones’ Souvenir, Leah Senior’s Pt Road Night; and the latest from Vika & Linda, Where Do You Come From.

Mackenzie also recommends Brian Nankervis’ NITV conversation with Vika and Linda, a reminder of just how much history sits behind their work with Joe Camilleri, Paul Kelly, Mark Seymour and plenty of others.

Beyond Australia, Wise nominates Athens, Georgia outfit Futurebirds and their Far Out Country, Volume One, while the political weather is addressed through recent albums by Lucinda Williams and Margo Price.

Then comes the unexpected endorsement: Brian Wise likes a new Rolling Stones album.

Not merely tolerates it. Likes it.

Foreign Tongues, he argues, contains four or five genuinely strong songs, a warmer and less bombastic production approach, and some of Mick Jagger’s best singing in years.

Mackenzie is suitably startled.

The debate then becomes one of corporate archaeology: after decades in the band, why is Darryl Jones still not officially a Rolling Stone? Is Ronnie Wood a full shareholder? And who, exactly, owns what in the Rolling Stones empire?

Film also gets a look-in with a recommendation for Sharper, the Apple TV thriller featuring Julianne Moore and John Lithgow.

Mackenzie wisely avoids revealing too much, describing it instead as a clever game of pretence, financial manipulation and shifting sympathies. The trailer, he suggests, sells one film; the movie itself has other ideas.

The episode also pays tribute to Sam Neill, remembered by the hosts as an actor of immense range and an unusually gracious presence.

Hunt for the Wilderpeople gets particular affection, alongside the expected mentions of Jurassic Park, The Hunt for Red October and Peaky Blinders.

Melbourne playwright, author and artist Barry Dickins is also remembered as a funny, distinctive and important local voice.

Finally, Daniel Lanois enters the frame via a revealing Uncut Q&A. Asked how one persuades Dylan to attempt another take, the celebrated producer offers a more sensible proposition: you do not persuade Bob Dylan; you create the right world around him. A Mexican movie house, vintage confectionery, old film posters and a Western-wear store next door apparently help.

Wise follows with his own Lanois story from 1995, when the producer—fresh from work on Emmylou Harris’ Wrecking Ball—was too nervous to ask legendary New Orleans engineer Cosimo Matassa how he got such powerful drum sounds on his classic mono recordings.

Matassa’s answer was admirably free of mystique: if you want the drums louder, move the microphone closer to the drums.

After a century and a half of recorded audio, it turns out that the big secrets are still either beautifully complicated—or blindingly obvious.